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TED: COMING UP NEXT ON "ARIZONA HORIZON," THE STATE SUPREME COURT IS SET TO HEAR A CASE INVOLVING ARIZONA'S CAMPAIGN DONOR DISCLOSURE LAW.

WE HEARD FROM THOSE OPPOSED TO THE LAW LAST NIGHT.

WE'LL HEAR FROM A SUPPORTER TONIGHT.

NICOLE: -- TED: AND THEY ARE BACK WITH ANOTHER THRILLER.

THOSE STORIES AND MORE NEXT ON "ARIZONA HORIZON."

.

TED: GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO "ARIZONA HORIZON."

I'M TED SIMONS.

THE ARIZONA SUPREME COURT WILL HEAR ARGUMENTS THURSDAY ON PROP 211.

THE CAMPAIGN DONOR DISCLOSURE LAW PASSED BY VOTERS IN 2022.

THE COURT WILL FOCUS ON WHAT OPPONENTS CLAIM ARE THE VIOLATIONS OF FREE SPEECH AND PRIVACY PROTECTIONS.

WE HEARD THE ARGUMENTS LAST NIGHT ON "ARIZONA HORIZON."

TONIGHT WE HEAR THE OTHER SIDE.

WE WELCOME FORMER ARIZONA ATTORNEY GENERAL TERRY GODDARD.

GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU, TED.

NICE TO BE HERE.

TED: THIS IS A BIGGIE FOR YOU.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE SUPREME COURT IS TAKING ON -- WHY DO YOU THINK THEY DECIDED TO HEAR IT?

>> THEY SAID THEY WANTED TO BE SURE THAT THE ARIZONA CONSTITUTION, WHICH AS A BROADER DEFINITION OF FREE SPEECH, DIDN'T IMPOSE A DIFFERENT STANDARD THAN ALL THE COURTS THAT HAVE HEARD THIS CHALLENGE BEFORE HAVE IMPOSED.

THAT'S THE QUESTION THEY RAISED, AND YOU KNOW, I'M JUST SORRY THAT THE DARK MONEY APOLOGISTS THAT YOU HAD ON LAST NIGHT REFUSED TO HAVE A JOINT SESSION WITH ME SO WE COULD DISCUSS THE ISSUES SO PEOPLE COULD HEAR THE BACK AND FORTH.

WE GOT TO WORK THROUGH YOU.

TED: I'LL DO MY BEST TO WEAR THE DIFFERENT HAT HERE.

WHAT THEY'RE SAYING.

THE LAW IS AN ANTI-PRIVACY LAW AND UNDERMINES FREEDOM.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND?

>> YOU KNOW, WE SPENT FOUR DIFFERENT ELECTIONS TO GET WHAT BECAME PROPOSITION 211 ON THE BALLOT.

THOUSANDS OF HOURS OF PEOPLE PASSING PETITIONS AND TRYING TO GET ON THE BACHLT WE HAD BAD BREAKS BUT FINALLY GOT IT IN 2022 AND PASSED BY 72%.

THE RADICALLY DIVIDED ARIZONA SAID, YES!

WE THINK VOTERS SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW WHO IT IS THAT'S TRYING TO CONVINCE US TO GO ONE WAY OR THE OTHER IN AN ELECTION.

THAT RIGHT TO KNOW IS THE IMPORTANT THING.

IN ARIZONA, THESE OPPONENTS HAVE ALLEGED THAT PEOPLE ARE HAVING THEIR PRIVACY VIOLATED, THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE DOXXED, HARASSED.

THEY COULDN'T PRODUCE A SINGLE EXAMPLE IN ANY OF THE TRIALS HELD ON THIS ISSUE OF SOMEBODY BEING HARASSED BECAUSE THE CONTRIBUTION TO A POLITICAL CANDIDATE WAS DISCLOSED.

TED: CERTAINLY NOT THE TWO ANONYMOUS PEOPLE IN THIS PARTICULAR SUIT.

>> THEY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY FOR YEARS TO COME UP WITH AN EXAMPLE AND FAILED TO DO IT.

TED: WE HEARD THE EXAMPLE, CENTER FOR ARIZONA POLICY RECEIVED SO MANY DEATH THREATS THEY HAD TO HIRE PRIVATE SECURITY.

>> IS THAT BECAUSE OF THEIR CONTRIBUTIONS?

I DON'T THINK SO.

IT'S BECAUSE OF THE UP-FRONT ATTITUDE ON CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES.

VOTERS HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW WHO IT IS BEHIND THE ADS.

HERE IN ARIZONA, WE KNOW HOW MUCH IT COSTS US.

WHAT WE DON'T KNOW, THE DARK MONEY PEOPLE ELECTED TWO PEOPLE FOR THE ARIZONA CORPORATION COMMISSION AND RAISED THE RATES AND THAT WAS A DIRECT RESULT THAT DARK MONEY SUPPORTED THE TWO CANDIDATES.

AND ARIZONANS WANT TO CHANGE THAT.

THEY BELIEVE THIS IS SOMETHING THEY OUGHT TO KNOW AND HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW IT AND THE SUPREME COURT OVER AND OVER AGAIN AFFIRMED THAT.

THEY SAID CONTRIBUTIONS TO A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN ARE NOT CLASSIC SPEECH, AND THE VOTER'S RIGHT TO KNOW IS MORE IMPORTANT.

THAT'S COMES OUT OF CITIZENS UNITED, THE CASE THAT'S CITED FOR CORPORATE HEGEMONY.

TED: THIS PARTICULAR CASE, HOW IS IT NOT A CASE OF DONOR PRIVACY?

>> WELL, IT ISN'T.

IT ISN'T.

AND THE SAME CONSTITUTION THAT JUDGE GOULD AND OTHERS HAVE BEEN SAYING IS THE REASON WE SHOULD TAKE SPECIAL CARE, THAT CONSTITUTION DIRECTED THE ARIZONA LEGISLATURE TO PASS A DISCLOSURE ACT.

IN OTHER WORDS, THE FREE SPEECH PROVISION THEY'RE RELYING ON WAS THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WROTE THAT ALSO DIRECTED THE ARIZONA LEGISLATURE TO SAY IF YOU'RE GOING TO CONTRIBUTE TO A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN, WE NEED TO KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

THAT'S BEEN THERE SINCE 1912.

FROM THEN UNTIL THE PRESENT.

SO MILLIONS OF ARIZONANS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS.

THEY'VE NEVER BEEN DOXXED, NEVER BEEN HARASSED.

I DON'T KNOW A SINGLE EXAMPLE AND THE OPPONENTS CAN'T SHOW ME ONE THAT SAYS X, Y AND Z BECAUSE OF CONTRIBUTION HAS BEEN HARASSED.

THEY'RE RELYING ON THE ARIZONA CONSTITUTION.

I SAY, GOOD, LOOK TO THE ARIZONA CONSTITUTION, THE SAME CONSTITUTION THAT REQUIRED DISCLOSURE OF POLITICAL CONTRIBUTION SOURCES.

TED: AND YET JUDGE GOULD SAID ARIZONA CONSTITUTION HAS A STRONGER FREE SPEECH AND PRIVACY PROTECTION THAN EVEN THE U.S. CONSTITUTION.

>> YES, IT DOES, AND FREE SPEECH -- TED: AND SAYS IT APPLIES HERE.

>> THIS DOES NOT APPLY BECAUSE, A, WE'VE HAD ONE JUDGE AFTER ANOTHER HEAR THIS CASE AND SAID, NO, THAT'S NOT THE -- VOTER'S RIGHT TO KNOW IS THE THING THAT'S IMPORTANT HERE, AND THEN YOU HAVE THE SAME LEGISLATURE OO NOT LEGISLATURE BUT SAME CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION WHICH PASSED THAT FREE SPEECH, I'M SURE YOU HEARD IT LAST NIGHT, BASICALLY PUTS IT IN THE POSITIVE.

IN OTHER WORDS, THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES SAYS THE NEGATIVE, CONGRESS SHALL ENACT NO LAWS.

THE ARIZONA CONSTITUTION SAYS EVERY PERSON SPEAKS FREELY AND HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK FREELY.

THIS DOES NOT STOP THAT.

AND ONE OTHER THING I'M SURE HE DIDN'T MENTION AND THAT IS PROP 211, THE LAW IN ARIZONA TODAY FOR DISCLOSURE SAYS IF YOU ARE WORRIED YOU MIGHT BE HARMED IN SOME WAY BECAUSE OF THE DISCLOSURE OF YOUR NAME, BECAUSE OF YOUR CONTRIBUTION, YOU CAN OPT OUT.

YOU CAN TELL THE ORGANIZATION THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN THE MONEY TO THAT YOU'D RATHER NOT HAVE THE MONEY GO FOR POLITICAL ADS, THAT'S THE ONLY THING PROP 211 APPLIES TO.

NOT THE ACTIVITIES OF THE NONPROFIT.

NOT THE BROAD -- ALL THE OTHER THINGS THEY DO, IT'S ONLY WHEN THEY BUY A POLITICAL AD AND PUT IT ON THE AIR.

SO IT'S THOSE CONTRIBUTORS THAT WE'RE ASKING TO BE DISCLOSED.

NOT EVERYBODY.

TED: WHEN THE OTHER SIDE SAYS PROP 211 WAS SIMPLY AN ATTEMPT TO MUZZLE POLITICAL OPPOSITION, YOU SAY?

>> NONSENSE.

THAT'S WHY 72% OF THE ARIZONA VOTERS SAY YES, WE WANT TO HAVE THAT RIGHT.

WE THINK IT'S IMPORTANT.

REPUBLICANS, DEMOCRATS, LIBERALS, CONSERVATIVES, ALL SAID THIS IS A BASIC PART OF KNOWING HOW TO VOTE.

IN OTHER WORDS, HOW CAN YOU MAKE A KNOWLEDGEABLE VOTE?

I GO BACK TO THE 2014 ELECTION WHEN ARIZONA ELECTIONS -- ARIZONA VOTERS DIDN'T KNOW THAT THEIR MAJOR UTILITY WAS BEHIND TWO CANDIDATES BECAUSE IT WAS ALL DARK MONEY AND THEY VOTED THOSE PEOPLE INTO OFFICE AND TURNED AROUND AND TOOK MILLIONS OUT OF OUR POCKET.

TED: CAN A CHILLING EFFECT, THOUGH -- I KNOW YOU DON'T SEE A CHILLING EFFECT.

LET'S SAY WE SEE FROST ON THE EDGES HERE.

CAN A CHILLING EFFECT EQUAL RETALIATION IN THE EYES OF THE LAW?

>> A, NO CHILLING EFFECT, NEVER BEEN SHOWN.

1912 WAS THE BEGINNING OF DISCLOSURE IN ARIZONA.

SHOW ME AN EXAMPLE, PLEASE, OF SOMEBODY WHOSE ACTIVITIES WERE SOMEHOW CURTAILED BECAUSE THEY MADE A POLITICAL CONTRIBUTION?

IT HASN'T HAPPENED.

I THINK THAT'S THE FIRST STEP HERE.

SECOND PART IS WHAT ARE THE OPPONENTS TRYING TO SAY?

THEY NEVER CHALLENGED THE POLITICAL CONTRIBUTION, HAVE ALWAYS HAD TO DISCLOSE OUR NAME, OUR ADDRESS AND THE NAME OF OUR EMPLOYER.

THAT'S BEEN THE LAW.

NOBODY HAS CHALLENGED THAT.

MANY PEOPLE TODAY AREN'T CHALLENGING IT.

THEY'RE SAYING A SPECIAL GROUP OF PEOPLE, THE ONES WHO WANT TO GIVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS IF NOT MILLIONS TO INFLUENCE THE ELECTION SHOULD REMAIN SECRET.

NOT EVERYBODY'S RIGHT THEY'RE FIGHTING FOR, IT'S FOR A VERY SMALL GROUP OF VERY WEALTHY FOLKS WHO FORM 501(C)(3) AND 501C4 PROFITS AND HIDE THEIR IDENTITY.

TED: CLOSE TO THE LAST QUESTION HERE, IS THIS STATUTE TOO BROAD?

DOES IT SWEEP TOO MANY PEOPLE IN?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

IT IS VERY CAREFULLY TAILORED.

I KNOW HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE BANTA CASE IN CALIFORNIA, WHICH DID SWEEP TOO MANY PEOPLE IN AND SAID EVERY NONPROFIT HAS TO DISCLOSE ALL OWNERS ALL THE TIME.

WE'RE NOT THAT WAY.

PROP 211 SAYS THE ONLY CONTRIBUTORS DISCLOSED GIVE OVER $5,000.

THAT CUTS AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE OUT.

THE SECOND PART IS THEY HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO OPT OUT.

IF THEY DON'T WANT TO BE DISCLOSED, THEY CAN TELL THE ORGANIZATION THEY'RE CONTRIBUTING TO, I'M NOT GOING TO DO THAT BECAUSE I'M WORRIED ABOUT IT SO THEIR NAME IS NEVER DISCLOSED.

SO I THINK WE'VE COVERED OURSELVES VERY CAREFULLY.

IT'S A VERY PRECISE STATUTE, AND IT HAS NO CONNECTION WITH THE CALIFORNIA CASE THAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT.

TED: FORMER ARIZONA ATTORNEY GENERAL TERRY GODDARD, GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALLOWING ME TO WEAR THE HAT.

GOOD CONVERSATION.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU FOR CONVEYING THE ARGUMENTS THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN HERE TO BRING UP THEMSELVES, AND WERE NOT.

COWARDICE IS NOT A VIRTUE.

TED: ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU, SIR.

.

TED: THE FIESTA SPORTS FOUNDATION WISHES FOR TEACHERS IS THE LARGEST DIRECT CLASSROOM SUPPORT INITIATIVE IN ARIZONA, AIMS TO HELP TEACHERS PAY FOR BASIC CLASSROOM SUPPLIES.

JOINING US NOW IS CHRISTINA THE FIESTA SPORTS FOUNDATION CHIEF OFFICER AND CHIEF OF STAFF.

WELCOME TO "ARIZONA HORIZON," GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

TED: I KNOW YOU'RE FROM THE FIESTA BOWL BECAUSE OF THE JACKET, YOU CAN SEE THEM FROM A MILE AWAY.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

WE WANT YOU TO SEE US FROM A MILE AWAY.

TED: WHAT THE IS FOUNDATION?

SECONDLY WHAT IS WISHES FOR TEACHERS?

>> START WITH THE FIESTA SPORTS FOUNDATION, MOST PEOPLE KNOW US FOR THE FIESTA BOWL, THE REALITY IS THE HEART OF OUR ORGANIZATION IS GIVING BACK TO THE COMMUNITY, IN A REALLY INTENTIONAL WAY, WE PIVOTED TO THE FIESTA SPORTS FOUNDATION WITH THE FIESTA BOWL THE SIGNATURE EVENT BUT THE WORK THAT'S HAPPENING IN COMMUNITIES ACROSS ARIZONA, THE HEART OF OUR ORGANIZATION AND THE SIGNATURE PROGRAM WITHIN THAT IS THE WISHES FOR TEACHERS PROGRAM.

TED: AND THAT PROGRAM BASICALLY HELPS TEACHERS WITH SUPPLIES THAT THEY ARE NOW HAVING TO BUY ON THEIR OWN?

>> GOODNESS.

THIS IS YEAR TEN OF THIS PROGRAM.

AND WHERE IT STARTED WE KNEW THAT FAR TOO OFTEN TEACHERS WERE DIPPING INTO THEIR OWN POCKETS TO SUPPORT THEIR CLASSROOM.

WE WANTED TO SUPPORT THAT.

IT'S GROWNS ITLY OVER THE YEARS IMPACTING THOUSANDS OF TEACHERS, MILLIONS OF STUDENTS BUT IT'S ABOUT TEACHERS KNOW THEIR STUDENTS THE BEST, THEIR CLASSROOM THE BEST.

GET THEM THE RESOURCES THEY NEED TO MAKE AN IMPACT.

TED: WHAT HAVE THE WISHES BEEN OVER THE YEARS?

>> WE SAW IT ALL.

WHETHER IT'S BASIC NEEDS AND SIMPLE TECHNOLOGY REQUEST OR FLEXIBLE SEATING OPTIONS.

UPDATED FURNITURE BUT THEN SEE TEACHERS WHO WANT TO START A PANTRY IN THEIR CLASSROOM BECAUSE SOMETIMES STUDENTS ARE COMING HUNGRY AND THEY WORRY ABOUT WHEN THEY LEAVE WHAT THE NEXT MEAL IS GOING TO BE.

TEACHERS WANT TO MAKE SURE THEIR KIDS ARE GETTING EYE GLASS SCREENING BECAUSE THEY'RE STRUGGLING TO SEE THE WHITE BOARD.

THE POWER HERE IS GETTING THE TEACHERS THAT CHANCE TO MAKE THE IMPACT THEMSELVES.

TED: SO ON AVERAGE, HOW MUCH WOULD A TEACHER RECEIVE?

>> EACH WISH IS $2500, AND SO THIS YEAR WE'RE DOING $1.5 MILLION, OVER 500 TEACHERS GET THEIR WISH GRANTED.

TED: THAT'S IMPRESSIVE.

OKAY THE APPLICATION PROCESS, WHAT IF I'M A TEACHER AND WANT 2500 BUCKS BECAUSE I WANT THE PIANO AND THE SKI SET I KEEP HEARING ABOUT.

>> WE KNOW TEACHERS ARE STRETCHED THIN.

A LOT ON THEIR PLATES ALREADY.

WISHES FOR TEACHERS.ORG, A FIVE-MINUTE APPLICATION, K-12 PUBLIC OR CHARTER, THAT'S WHO WE'RE SERVING AND FIVE MINUTE APPLICATION.

TELL US YOUR WISH, LET US MAKE IT HAPPEN.

TED: ARE THERE PREREQUISITES INVOLVED?

>> THAT'S IT.

A K-12 TEACHER IN THE STATE OF ARIZONA, PUBLIC OR CHARTER SCHOOL.

THE ELIGIBILITY IS IMMENSE, THOUSANDS OF TEACHERS ACROSS THE STATE ARE ELIGIBLE AND HOPE THEY ALL APPLY.

TED: IF THOUSANDS ARE ELIGIBLE, HOW MANY GET IT?

>> 550 ARE GRANTED THE WISH.

WE'RE ALSO DOING SCHOOL WISHES.

THERE'S GOOD CHANCES.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, IS IT A RANDOM SELECTION?

>> IT HAS TO BE, HOW COULD WE EVER CHOOSE.

ALL OF THE TEACHERS ARE SO DESERVING.

IT IS A LOTTERY SYSTEM, WE TRADITIONALLY SEE 4,000 TO 5,000 APPLICATIONS COME IN.

WE WANT THE NUMBER TO KEEP GROWING TO GRANT MORE WISHES.

TED: AND THE APPLICATION PERIOD IS THIS MONTH, RIGHT?

>> THE MONTH OF SEPTEMBER, IT OPENED ON THE 2nd THROUGH THE 30th, FIVE MINUTES, WISHES FOR TEACHERS.ORG, TAKE THAT FIVE MINUTES IN THIS MONTH, TEACHERS APPLY.

TED: YOU LET SOMETHING SLIP ABOUT A WISHES FOR SCHOOLS.

>> BECAUSE OF THAT IMPACT, WE WANT IT TO KEEP GROWING.

WE KNOW THE TEACHERS ARE THE HEART AND SOUL OF THE CLASSROOMS.

AS WE LOOK TO GROW OUR INVESTMENT, THIS YEAR THERE WILL BE THREE SCHOOLS WHO ARE GRANTED $50,000 WISHES.

TED: WOW.

>> SO WE KEEP STEPPING IN THE SPACE.

EDUCATION IS ONE OF OUR MAIN PILLARS AND WANT TO KEEP SHOWING UP IN THE SPACE.

TED: HAVE YOU SEEN MORE INTEREST IN THIS OVER THE YEARS AS IT SEEMS LIKE PUBLIC SCHOOL FUNDING HAD ITS PROBLEMS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

OUR WISHES -- THE APPLICATION NUMBERS CONTINUE TO GROW ON THE SCHOOL AND THE TEACHER SIDE, AND SO WE KNOW THAT THEY NEED OUR SUPPORT.

TED: WHERE DO THEY GO TO APPLY AND LEARN MORE?

>> WISHES FOR TEACHERS.ORG, FIVE-MINUTE APPLICATION, WE HOPE THEY APPLY.

TED: ALL RIGHT, GOOD STUFF.

LOVE THE JACKET.

>> THANK YOU.

.

TED: AWARD WINNING AUTHORS ISABELLA MALDONADO AND JEFFREY DEAVER ARE NOW OUT WITH A FOLLOW-UP TO FIRST MURDER MYSTERY COLLABORATION.

THAT FIRST BOOK WAS TITLED FATAL INTRUSION.

THE NEW BOOK IS TITLED GRAVE ARTIST, CONTINUES WITH A FEDERAL AGENT AND A PRIVATE SECURITY EXPERT.

WE WELCOME ISABELLA MALDONADO TO "ARIZONA HORIZON" AND A WELCOME AS WELL TO JEFFREY DEAVER.

ISABELLA YOU'RE THE LOCAL AUTHOR, START WITH YOU.

WHEN DID YOU TWO DECIDE, HEY, LET'S GET TOGETHER AND WRITE A MYSTERY NOVEL?

>> STARTED AS A JOKE.

WE WERE AT A CONFERENCE IN CHICAGO TOGETHER, AND WE JUST STARTED -- WE WERE IN THE GREEN ROOM AND STARTED JOKING ABOUT WOULDN'T IT BE FUNNY TO WRITE A NOVEL TOGETHER, AND THEN WE BUMPED INTO EACH OTHER AGAIN IN NEW YORK IN ANOTHER CRIME AUTHOR OR ALSO ATTENDEE CONFERENCE, AND WE KIND OF TALKED ABOUT IT AGAIN, A LITTLE LESS JIOKE, AND FINALLY BUMPED INTO EACH OTHER AGAIN AT THE POISONED PEN IN SCOTTSDALE, AND AFTER THAT, WE SAT DOWN TOGETHER AND WE GOT SERIOUS, AND WE WERE LIKE, YOU KNOW, MAYBE THIS NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

TED: HOW DOES IT HAPPEN, JEFF?

HOW DO TWO WRITERS WRITE A BOOK?

>> IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT ISABELLA AND I HAVE A SIMILAR WRITING STYLE.

WE WRITE THRILLERS.

CRIME WRITING IS DIVIDED INTO TWO CATEGORIES, WILL WE STOP THE TERRORIST, FIND THE SERIAL KILLER AS OPPOSED TO TO A MURDER MYSTERY WHICH ASKS WHAT HAPPENED.

WE WRITE THIS PEDAL TO THE FLOOR FAST PACED THING, WE WRITE AS A TECHNICAL TERM, THIRD-PERSON POINT OF VIEW, JUMP INTO OTHER CHARACTER'S HEADS AND TRY IT.

TED: WAS IT EASIER THIS TIME THAN LAST TIME?

>> IN THE SENSE WE HAD AN IDEA HOW WE WERE GOING TO DO IT.

IN THAT SENSE, YES, BUT EVERY BOOK IS A CHALLENGE.

TED: DID YOU FIND THE SAME THING?

YOU'VE WRITTEN SO MANY BOOKS, I DON'T WANT TO SAY FORMULAIC, AFTER THE FIRST ONE, THERE ARE STEPS HERE THEY RECOGNIZE.

>> TED, I'LL SAY THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE WORD FORMULAIC, I FLY A LOT ON BOOK TOURS.

THAT AIRPLANE WAS BUILT BY FORMULA.

WE HAD THE FORMULA AND STICK TRUE TO THE FORM, THAT TEMPLATE AND WE STAY WITH THAT.

TED: THAT RAISES THE QUESTION, WHAT MAKES A GOOD MYSTERY, CRIME, WHODUNIT, WHATEVER?

THAT WHOLE GENRE.

WHAT MAKES A GOOD NOVEL.

>> ONE THING THAT DOES AND WE MADE SURE WE DID IT HERE IS EVEN THOUGH LIKE JEFF WAS SAYING THERE IS THIS TEMPLATE OR WHATEVER, BUT THE ORIGINALITY THAT YOU BRING TO THAT, AND IN THIS CASE, WE REALLY WANTED TO BE REALLY ORIGINAL, AND WE DID, AND PEOPLE ARE TELLING US, THEY'RE LIKE, WE'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS BEFORE, AND THIS IS FRESH.

TED: PLEASE.

>> THE OTHER THING IS WE DO THIS NOT FOR OURSELVES.

WE GET ON SIT DOWN IN FRONT OF OUR DESK, OUR DOG'S AT OUR FEET AND MAKE STUFF UP.

DOES LIFE GET ANY BETTER THAN THAT?

WE DO THIS FOR READERS AND EVERY MINUTE OF OUR WRITING PROCESS, IS THIS GOOD FOR READERS?

NO CHILDREN ARE HURT IN THE BOOKS, NO EXPLICIT GORE, THERE'S A LOT OF SUSPENSE, AND NO ANIMALS, NEVER HURT AN ANIMAL.

TED: IS THERE SOMEONE ON YOUR SHOULDER SAYING THAT'S NOT GOING TO WORK OR JOE IN GLENDALE MAY NOT GET THAT?

>> THE SPIRIT OF THE READ SER LOOKING OVER OUR SHOULDERS EVERY MINUTE.

TED: DO YOU FIND THE SAME THING?

>> YES, THE COOL THING IS WE'RE BOTH EXPERIENCED, WE EDIT EACH OTHER RUTHLESSLY AND TRUST EACH OTHER, AND SO THAT WAY IF ONE OF US IS LIKE, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THIS, THEN WE LOOK AT THAT VERY SERIOUSLY.

TED: I NOTICE ONE OF THE BLURBES ON THIS SAYS IT IS INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING UNTIL THE FINAL REVEAL.

>> WE HAVE THREE SURPRISES, READERS ARE SO SMART AND SO IRRITATING.

WE COME UP WITH A GREAT TWIST, LET'S PUT ANOTHER ONE IN.

TED: DID YOU KNOW WHAT THE ENDING WAS BEFORE YOU STARTED?

>> IN THE SENSE THAT WE DO OUTLINE, WE KNOW WHERE IT'S GOING.

NOW THE OUTLINE IS NOT CHISELLED IN STONE.

WE ARE, AND WE DO, DEVIATE AND RECONFIGURE, BUT WE DO HAVE AN IDEA.

WE KNOW WHERE WE'RE GOING.

TED: I INTERVIEW AUTHORS ALL THE TIME, I ASK DO THE CHARACTERS DO SOMETHING YOU WEREN'T PLANNING ON THEM DOING?

>> THEY CAN OFFER SUGGESTIONS.

>> THEY TRY IN MY BOOKS AND THEY'RE THE NEXT VICTIM.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> WHEN YOU'RE WRITING WITH THE DOG AT YOUR FEET AND PERSON ON YOUR SHOULDER.

DO YOU GO THIS IS -- THIS IS GOOD STUFF?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WHEN THAT HAPPENS, I'M A LITTLE SUSPECT BECAUSE I SHOULD BE LIKE THE AIRLINE PILOT AND SHE SITS DOWN AND VERY UNEMOTIONAL, LOOKS AT THE INSTRUMENTS, BIG STORM AHEAD, BEAUTIFUL SUNSET, I DON'T CARE, I'M ABOUT GETTING THE PASSENGERS WHERE THEY'RE GOING.

WE DECIDED BETWEEN US WE HAVE THE SAME ATTITUDE.

TED: YOU AGREE?

>> UH-HUH.

TED: YEAH.

WHEN YOU ARE WRITING DO YOU GIVE YOURSELF THE CREEPS?

>> YEAH, THERE'S ALL DIFFERENT EMOTIONS CAN COME OUT.

SOMETIME MY THROAT WILL TIGHTEN OR SOMETIMES I GET, WHOA, THAT IS CREEPY, YOU KNOW, BUT THAT'S GOOD.

THAT'S HOPEFULLY WHAT THE READ SER EXPERIENCING.

>> YEAH, SAME STUFF?

>> THESE COURSES I TELL MY STUDENTS, THEY LOOK AT SOMETHING, THIS IS WRONG, IT'S NONSENSE, I SAY DON'T BE MAD AT YOURSELF, YOU IDENTIFIED A PROBLEM.

GET THERE AND FIX IT.

YOU'RE A CRAFTS PERSON, FIX IT.

TED: A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK YOU CAN'T WRITE A GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL UNTIL THE MUSE COMES CRUSHING YOU AND YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING BUT WRITE.

BUT THIS IS WORK, YOU HAVE TO SIT AT YOUR DESK AND WORK?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

YOU CAN'T WAIT, YOU CAN'T BE PRECIOUS AND WAIT FOR THE MUSE.

FOR US, JEFF AND I ARE WORKING WRITERS, WE ARE UNDER CONTRACT.

MULTIPLE CONTRACTS ALL THE TIME.

YOU CAN'T JUST BE LIKE, YEAH, YEAH, BREACH OF CONTRACT, I DON'T FEEL IT.

NO, NO, YOU GET TO WORK.

>> JACK LONDON SAID YOU CAN'T WAIT FOR THE MUSE, YOU HAVE TO GO AFTER IT WITH A CLUB.

I LOVE THAT.

TED: GREAT LINE.

JEFFREY, AS FAR AS YOU'RE CONCERNED, FORMER JOURNALIST, FOLK SINGER.

>> I KNOW.

OUT OF DEFERENCE TO YOU AND YOUR VIEWERS, I'M NOT GOING TO SING.

TED: AND AN ATTORNEY.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

TED: AND YET BEING A WRITER WON OUT.

>> LIKE ISABELLA, ANOTHER COINCIDENCE BETWEEN US, WE WANTED TO WRITE FROM A VERY YOUNG AGE.

MOZART WAS COMPOSING AT 4.

JACKSON POLLOCK WAS POURING PAINT ON MOTHER'S LAUNDRY ROOM FLOOR WHEN HE WAS THREE.

WRITERS HAVE TO EXPERIENCE THINGS.

I DID JOURNALISM, FOLK SINGING AND AN ATTORNEY AND IN MY 30s, I KNEW IT'S TIME.

I'VE BEEN DOING THIS FULL-TIME FOR 35 YEARS.

TED: YOU WERE INVOLVED WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT?

>> RIGHT.

TED: WHEN DID YOU REALIZE IT WAS TIME?

>> I KNEW I WANTED TO WRITE BUT I PROBABLY AT THE SAME TIME MAYBE IN MY LATE 30s EARLY 40s, I KNEW IT WAS TIME, BUT AT THAT POINT, I WAS FULL TILT BUSY WITH MY LAW ENFORCEMENT CAREER, AND I WAS A CAPTAIN ON THE POLICE DEPARTMENT SO I WAS ON CALL 365 DAYS A YEAR, 24/7.

I DIDN'T HAVE TIME UNTIL I RETIRED.

SO AFTER 22 YEARS WITH A GUN AND BADGE, THAT'S WHEN I HAD TIME TO ACTUALLY WRITE.

>> YOU COULDN'T SAY TO A SUSPECT, HOLD ON, I HAVE TO PLOT AN IDEA.

TED: REPEAT THAT STATEMENT.

IS THERE ANOTHER TEAM EFFORT IN THE WORKS?

>> INDEED.

WE GOT THE OUTLINE DONE.

WE'RE WRITING FOR OTHER PUBLISHERS AS WELL, BUT NAVIGATING THAT RIGHT NOW.

NEXT YEAR, MAYBE WE'LL COME BACK AND VISIT.

TED: YOU ARE CERTAINLY INVITED AND ISABELLA YOU ARE INVITED AS WELL.

IT'S FUN TOUCHING A BOOK, MUST BE EXCITING KNOWING YOU WROTE THAT.

>> NOTHING LIKE IT.

TED: IT'S THE GRAVE ARTIST, AND CERTAINLY STARTS WITH A WALLOP, HOLY SMOKES.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU BOTH HERE.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANKS.

>> THAT IS IT FOR NOW.

I'M TED SIMONS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU HAVE A GREAT EVENING.