>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> THE UNITED STATES PROVED ONCE AGAIN THAT WE HAVE THE MOST POWERFUL, MOST LETHAL, MOST SOPHISTICATED, AND MOST FEARSOME --IT IS A FEARSOME MILITARY ON PLANET EARTH.

>> THE TRUMP CLAIMS THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE AS HIS OWN AND PUTS COLUMBIA NEXT ON THE MENU.

AS PRESIDENT JUAN MANUEL SANTOS JOINS ME.

THEN -- >>> WIDESPREAD PROTESTS SHAKE IRAN.

IS THIS NOW EXISTENTIAL?

>>> AND -- >> THE REALITY OF AMERICA STRUGGLING INTERNALLY IS MAKING IT MUCH LESS RELIABLE INTERNATIONALLY.

>> 2026 HAS STARTED OUT WITH TURBULENCE IN GEOPOLITICS.

GLOBAL ANALYST TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHY THIS YEAR COULD BE THE TIPPING POINT.

>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENTS, JIM ATTWOOD & LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDICE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

& SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON & JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND FUND, MONIQUE WARSHAW, KOO & PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

FROM GREENLAND TO IRAN TO COLUMBIA, DONALD TRUMP IS MAKING SERIOUS THREATS.

THE PRESIDENT PROCLAIMS THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE BELONGS TO THE UNITED STATES AND SAYS IT WILL TAKE GREENLAND FROM DENMARK, ITS OWN NATO ALLY, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

IN VENEZUELA, TRUMP SAYS THE ACTING PRESIDENT WILL DO AMERICA'S BIDDING OR REACH FURTHER MILITARY INTERVENTION, AND HE IS THREATENING COLUMBIA.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> COLUMBIA IS VERY SICK, RUN BY A SICK MAN WHO LIKES TO MAKING COCAINE AND SELLING IT TO THE UNITED STATES, AND HE IS NOT GOING TO BE DOING IT VERY LONG, LET ME TELL YOU.

>> WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, HE IS NOT GOING TO BE DOING IT VERY LONG?

>> HE IS NOT GOING TO BE DOING IT VERY LONG.

HE HAS COCAINE KNOWS AND COCAINE FACTORIES.

>> SO THERE WILL BE AN OPERATION BY THE U.S.?

>> IT SOUNDS GOOD TO ME.

>> THE COLOMBIAN PRESIDENT GUSTAVO HIT BACK BY GOING TO TAKE UP ARMS TO DEFEND HIS COUNTRY.

HE AND TRUMP HAVE CLASS FROM THE VERY START WHEN HE INITIALLY REFUSED TO TAKE PENICILLIN MIGRANTS THAT TRUMP WAS DEPORTING, THEN OVER THE WAR IN GAZA AND U.S.

MILITARY STRIKES AGAINST THE ALLEGED DRUG TRAFFICKING VESSELS IN VENEZUELA.

THE U.S.

EVEN SUSPENDED HIS VISA AND SANCTIONED HIM LAST YEAR, BUT THIS REALLY TURN INTO AN ASSAULT ?

HE IS JOINING ME NOW FROM THERE.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, MR.

PRESIDENT.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE , I AM VERY GLAD TO BE HERE WITH YOU.

>> SO, YOUR PRESIDENT , IS AS YOU HEAR, UNDER DIRECT VERBAL THREAT FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP.

DO YOU, IF YOU WERE PETRO, WOULD YOU BE PREPARING FOR AN INTERVENTION ALL VENEZUELA OR WHAT?

>> NO.

NO, THIS IS MORE OF A PERSONAL CLASH .

YOU SAID THAT IT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR SOME TIME.

PETRO AND TRUMP IN SOME WAY ARE THE SAME, THEY LIKE TO FIGHT, THEY LIKE TO EXERCISE THEIR DIPLOMACY THROUGH THE MICROPHONE, THROUGH TWEET ESPECIALLY, AND FOR PETRO TO BE ON THE OTHER PART OF TRUMP POLITICALLY, HE THINKS THAT WILL BENEFIT HIM.

BUT I DON'T THINK THAT THIS WILL GO --I HOPE DOESN'T GO FURTHER , TO A MORE DANGEROUS AREA, BECAUSE I THINK THAT WOULD BE VERY, VERY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE FOR EVERYBODY.

FOR THE U.S., FOR COLUMBIA, FOR THE REGION, AND FOR THE WORLD.

>> SO, LET ME ASK YOU, DO YOU THINK WHAT HAPPENED IN VENEZUELA WAS, IN YOUR WORDS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE FOR ALL THOSE ELEMENTS THAT YOU JUST LISTED ?

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU HEARD THAT A SITTING PRESIDENT --I KNOW MANY CALL HIM ILLEGITIMATE AND A DICTATOR, ALL OF THAT, BUT NONETHELESS, HE WAS EXTRACTED AND MOVED TO THE UNITED STATES, AND THE U.S.

SAYS IT IS RUNNING THE COUNTRY NOW.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION AS A SOUTH AMERICAN?

>> WELL, MY REACTION IS --ON THE ONE HAND, I AM VERY GLAD THAT MADURO IS NO LONGER IN POWER.

HE HAD VIOLATED EVERY LAW , VIOLATED EVERY HUMAN RIGHT OF VENEZUELANS , AND VENEZUELA WAS GOING DOWN THE DRAIN.

SO, THIS IS A VERY GOOD STEP TO RESTORE HOPEFULLY SOME STABILITY AND DEMOCRACY IN VENEZUELA, SO AS A COLOMBIAN, WE HAVE 2200 KILOMETERS OF LIVE FRONTIER WITH VENEZUELA.

THIS IS A GOOD STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

HOWEVER, AS ALSO SOMEBODY WHO DEFENDS MULTILATERALISM , THE RULE OF LAW, INTERNATIONAL -- INTERNATIONAL LAW, THE ACTION WAS NOT A LEGAL ACTION, IT WAS ILLEGAL, AND THEREFORE, IF IT STOPS THERE, WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO WHAT THE GENERAL USED TO SAY, THAT POLITICS AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS IS AN EXERCISE AMONG MONEY --MANY EVILS, CHOOSING THE LESSER EVIL.

SO, YOU HAVE ON THE ONE SIDE THE GOOD NEWS THAT MADURO IS NO LONGER IN POWER.

THE BAD NEWS THAT HE WAS TAKEN OUT OF POWER THROUGH AN ILLEGAL ACTION.

NOW, THERE ARE MANY QUESTIONS NOW THAT THE VENEZUELANS HAVE AND THE WORLD HAS.

THE FIRST QUESTION IS, OKAY, MADURO IS OUT OF POWER .

LEGITIMACY AND DEMOCRACY IN VENEZUELA, BUT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE PERSON WHO IS REPLACING MADURO IS HIS VICE PRESIDENT, BECAUSE SHE IS ALSO ILLEGITIMATE, BECAUSE THE MADURO REGIME WAS AN ILLEGITIMATE REGIME, SO IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND THAT HE WAS REPLACED BY AN ILLEGITIMATE PERSON IN TERMS OF DEMOCRATIC VALUES, AND ALL THE PEOPLE THAT WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS AND THE TERRIBLE THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN VENEZUELA ARE STILL IN POWER.

AND BACKED BY THE U.S., SO, THAT IS A DIFFICULT ASPECT TO UNDERSTAND, AND AS A COLOMBIAN, I AM WORRIED, AND MY QUESTION HERE , WHERE IS THE VENEZUELA REAL OPPOSITION?

WHY HAS THE REAL OPPOSITION, THE ONE THAT WON THE ELECTIONS LAST YEAR BY A VERY BIG MAJORITY, 70%, THAT IS THE INFORMATION THAT EVERYBODY HAS, WHY ARE THEY NOT IN THE FRONT LINE ?

WHY IS THAT THAT THE DECISION IS BEING DONE WITH ILLEGITIMATE MEMBERS OF THE MADURO REGIME?

THAT IS A QUESTION THAT SO FAR, NOBODY HAS ANSWERED.

>> RIGHT, AND IT IS THE QUESTION THAT I AM PUZZLING OVER AS WELL, BECAUSE FOR ME, IT'S THE FIRST TIME IN MY CAREER FOLLOWING THESE KINDS OF UPHEAVALS, THAT THE UNITED STATES HASN'T IMMEDIATELY TRIED TO BACK THE LEGITIMATE DEMOCRATIC OPPOSITION.

INSTEAD, IT HAS DONE THE OPPOSITE, AND IT HAS VERBALIZED --PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS VERBALIZED WHAT HE THINKS ABOUT FOR INSTANCE MARIA, THAT SHE DOESN'T HAVE THE RESPECT TO GOVERN.

DO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WHAT MIGHT HAVE CAUSED THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES TO TAKE THAT VIEW.

THERE ARE REPORTS THAT PERHAPS THE CIA FELT THAT SHE DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH INFLUENCE WITH THE MILITARY OR WITH THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND THE SECURITY APPARATUS, ET CETERA.

CAN YOU IMAGINE WHY THE UNITED STATES WOULD NOT IMMEDIATELY -- IMMEDIATELY EMBRACE THE OPPOSITION THAT IT ALREADY SAID ACTUALLY WON THE ELECTIONS IN '24 --FOUR '25, NOT MADURO?

>> WELL, ONE WOULD SUPPOSE THAT THEY THINK THAT THE PEOPLE THAT WERE LEFT OF THE MADURO REGIME , BECAUSE OF THE THREATS --AND TRUMP HAS BEEN VERY CLEAR ON THAT, IF YOU DON'T BEHAVE YOURSELF, YOU WILL BE IN THE SAME OR IN WORST SITUATION THAN MADURO.

THEY ARE AFRAID AND HE PROBABLY THINKS THAT HE CAN CONTROL THEM MUCH BETTER THAN HE COULD CONTROL THE OPPOSITION, BECAUSE IT OPPOSITION IS GRANTED A -- THE SPACE THAT IT DESERVES, IF YOU WANT TO RECUPERATE LEGITIMACY AND VENEZUELA, I THINK THAT THEY WOULD BE MUCH HARDER TO NEGOTIATE WITH ON ASPECTS, LIKE FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT HAS HAPPENED WITH THE OIL.

SO, I WOULD IMAGINE THAT WHAT THE U.S.

IS THINKING , THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT, NOW PRESIDENT, AND THE REGIME IS GOING TO BEHAVE BETTER RIGHT NOW THAN THE OPPOSITION.

>> VERY INTERESTING.

NOW, LET'S GET BACK TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY, TRUMP HAS SAID THIS ABOUT THE CURRENT PRESIDENT, PETRO, THAT COLUMBIA IS VERY SICK, TOO, RUN BY A SICK MAN, LIKES MAKING COCAINE AND SELLING IT TO THE UNITED STATES, AND HE IS NOT GOING TO BE DOING IT FOR VERY LONG, LET ME TELL YOU.

IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF THE SOUND BITE THAT WE PLAYED.

THERE APPARENTLY IS NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE THAT PETRO IS A DRUG DEALER.

MAYBE HE HASN'T CRACKED DOWN AS MUCH AS PEOPLE WOULD LIKE, BUT THAT ACCUSATION APPARENTLY IS NOT CORRECT.

AND WHEN TRUMP SAYS HE IS NOT GOING TO BE DOING IT FOR VERY LONG, LET ME TELL YOU, DO YOU TAKE THAT AS A THREAT OF INTERVENTION OR IS IT BECAUSE THERE IS GOING TO BE ELECTION SOON IN YOUR COUNTRY, PETRO CAN'T RUN AGAIN, AND DE FACTO, HE WILL NOT BE DOING THAT FOR MUCH LONGER?

>> I THINK AND I HOPE IT IS THE SECOND POINT THAT YOU JUST MENTIONED.

THAT PETRO IS NOT GOING TO BE IN POWER FOR LONG, AND WE HAVE CONGRESSIONAL ELECTIONS IN TWO MONTHS EXACTLY, AND PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS IN FOUR MONTHS, SO HE IS NOT GOING TO BE IN POWER FOR LONG.

AND I DON'T THINK THAT WHAT TRUMP WAS SUGGESTING IS THAT HE WANTS TO DO AN OPERATION SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU DID WITH MADURO.

AMONG OTHER REASONS IS BECAUSE, AS YOU ALREADY MENTIONED, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF PETRO , WHO IS NOT LIKED BY MANY PEOPLE , BUT THAT HE IS A DRUG TRAFFICKER, I DON'T THINK THAT HE IS A DRUG TRAFFIC OR AND THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT HE IS A DRUG TRAFFICKER.

>> SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT YOUR COUNTRY HAS TO DO, BECAUSE LET'S BE REALISTIC ABOUT IT, IT DOES PRODUCE AND SELL --WELL, SEND OVER 80% OF THE COCAINE THAT GETS TO THE UNITED STATES --COMES FROM YOUR COUNTRY.

THERE ISN'T ENOUGH OR THERE HASN'T BEEN ENOUGH CRACKDOWN OR ABILITY TO GET IT UNDER CONTROL.

LIKEWISE, ZERO ABILITY IN THE UNITED STATES TO CONTROL THE DEMAND, WHICH PRESUMABLY MAKES IT A VIABLE PLACE FOR ALL THE SOUTH AMERICAN DRUGS TO GO TO COUNTRY HAVE TO DO TO MAKE SURE THAT IT DOES CRACKDOWN ON THIS ILLEGAL DRUG TRADE, PARTICULARLY TO THE U.S.?

>> WELL, COLUMBIA HAS HAD A VERY, VERY FLUID AND CONSTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE U.S.

FOR DECADES.

WE WERE THE STRATEGIC ALLY OF THE U.S.

, SOUTH OF RIO GRANDE.

OF ALL THE COUNTRIES IN LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN, COLUMBIA WAS THE NUMBER ONE AS AN ALLY WITH THE U.S.

WE USED TO WORK WITH THE U.S.

IN MANY ASPECTS.

AMONG THEM, THE WAR ON DRUGS.

WE TRAINED POLICE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES WITH THE HELP OF THE U.S.

TO FIGHT DRUG TRAFFICKING.

AND WE GAVE THE U.S.

60 OR 70% OF THE INFORMATION THAT WAS NECESSARY TO COMBAT DRUG DRUGS.

THAT COLLABORATION IS NECESSARY BECAUSE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WHOLE OF LATIN AMERICA , AND ALSO STARTING TO HAPPEN IN AFRICA, IS THAT ORGANIZED CRIME IS GROWING AND IS BECOMING MORE POWERFUL AND MORE SOPHISTICATED.

AND THEY ARE PROBABLY VERY HAPPY WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING, BECAUSE IF A MAJOR PRODUCER OF COCAINE AND THE MAJOR CONSUMER OF COCAINE ARE FIGHTING AMONG EACH OTHER, WHO WINS?

ORGANIZED CRIME.

SO, WHAT SHOULD COLUMBIA DO?

COLUMBIA SHOULD SAY, LISTEN, LET'S GO BACK TO WHAT WE HAD BEFORE, LET'S COOPERATE IN SOMETHING THAT IS GOOD FOR BOTH OF US, WHICH IS DRUG TRAFFICKING.

INSTEAD OF THIS FIGHTING WITH THE MICROPHONE AND THE TWEETS AND THESE THREATS, BECAUSE THAT WILL LEAD TO NOWHERE.

>> CAN I JUST QUICKLY ASK YOU, YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY INCREDIBLY WELL KNOWN AS THE PRESIDENT WHO TOOK ON THE GORILLAS, THE REBELS, THE INSURGENTS IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY AND LEAD A LONG NEGOTIATION WITH, WHICH A LOT OF BUMPS AND UPS AND DOWNS, FINALLY SUCCEEDED IN BRINGING PEACE TO YOUR COUNTRY.

YOU WON THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE.

DO YOU WORRY THAT THERE COULD ANY --BE ANY ROCK STYLE BREWING IN VENEZUELA?

I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE CURRENT MILITARY THERE, THEY'RE CURRENTLY RUNNING IT THE SECURITY SERVES AS, AS YOU POINTED OUT AND EVERYBODY KNOWS, IS STILL CRACKING DOWN ON ORDINARY CIVILIANS IN VENEZUELA, BUT WHAT IF THEY ARE PUSHED ASIDE?

WHAT IS YOUR ANALYSIS OF WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IF THERE IS TO BE A BACKLASH AGAINST THE AMERICAN INTERVENTION?

>> WELL, THAT IS ONE OF MY WORRIES, THAT THERE IS A BACKLASH, NOT ONLY FOR VENEZUELA, BUT THE WHOLE REGION, IT'S JUST SOMETHING THAT THE U.S.

SHOULD TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION.

MANY PEOPLE ARE HAPPY THAT MADURO IS NOT IN POWER ANYMORE, BUT THIS ATTITUDE OF I OWN THE HEMISPHERE, AND THEREFORE YOU HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING THAT I WANT YOU TO DO, THE LATIN AMERICANS HAVE DIGNITY AND THEY HAVE PRIDE, AND IF THEY ARE FORCED TO TAKE MORE --A MORE STRONGER POSITION TO DEFEND THEIR DIGNITY AND THEIR PRIDE, THEY WILL DO IT SO, I HOPE IT DOESN'T DEVELOP INTO THAT SITUATION.

AND SO, I HOPE THAT DIPLOMACY AND THE DIALOGUE CAN BE RECUPERATED , WHICH IS WHAT IN THESE TYPE OF CIRCUMSTANCES.

AND PEOPLE ASK ME, WHAT WOULD YOU DO GENERALLY ?

AND I SAY, WHEN YOU ARE CONFUSED , YOUR PRINCIPLES AND YOUR VALUES ARE LIKE YOUR MAPS OR YOUR COMPASS WHEN YOU ARE LOST IN THE SEA OR IN THE CONTINENTAL AREAS.

YOU GO TO YOUR PRINCIPLES AND YOU GO TO YOUR VALUES AND WE HAVE TO RECUPERATE WHAT HAS BEEN WORKING , DIALOGUE, MULTILATERALISM, THE PEACEFUL SOLUTION OF CONFLICTS.

WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO THAT SITUATION.

OTHERWISE, NOT ONLY THE REGIONAL STABILITY, BUT THE WORLD STABILITY WILL BE IN DANGER.

>> YEAH.

>> WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO GO TOWARDS THAT WORLD WHERE THE OFF YOU ARE .

THE WEEK, WELL, THEY SUFFER.

WHATEVER HAPPENS.

THAT IS A PREAMBLE TO WAR.

WORLD WAR.

>> OKAY, SORRY, I DON'T MEAN TO INTERRUPT YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE SAYING SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT, SAY THAT AGAIN, PREAMBLE TO WORLD WAR.

>> YES.

IF THIS TREND THAT THE POWERFUL COUNTRIES CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT IN THEIR SPHERE OF INFLUENCE, THAT IS WHAT WE HAD BEFORE THE WORLD WAR , AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE U.N.

TRIED TO ESTABLISH A PROCEDURE FOR THIS NOT TO HAPPEN.

FOR THE POWERFUL COUNTRIES TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE RULE OF LAW , THE PROTOCOLS THAT WERE NEGOTIATED.

THAT IS WHAT MAINTAINS PEACE.

, THOSE LAWS , THEN THE CONSEQUENCE IS GOING TO BE WAR.

>> OKAY.

>> HISTORY HAS TAUGHT US THAT.

>> OKAY, SO LET ME THEN --I WANTED YOU TO LAY THAT OUT, BECAUSE I WANT YOU TO REACT TO ONE OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S KEY ADVISERS AND STRATEGISTS, AND THAT IS STEPHEN MILLER, WHO HAS BEEN OUT VERY PUBLICLY SAYING ALL OF WHAT YOU JUST SAID, YOU KNOW, THE RULES OF THE ROAD, THE INTERNATIONAL WORLD ORDER LED BY THE UNITED STATES, HE CALLED THEM ALL THESE INTERNATIONAL NICETIES, BUT "WE LIVE IN THE REAL WORLD WHICH REQUIRES STRENGTH, MIGHT, AND POWER."

AND HE HAS DOUBLE DOWN ON THAT AGAIN.

SO, THAT IS THEIR PRINCIPLES.

HE SAYS OBVIOUSLY GREENLAND SHOULD BE PART OF THE UNITED STATES AND NOBODY WOULD FIGHT THE U.S.

MILITARY OVER THE FUTURE OF GREENLAND.

THEN HE SAID THIS ABOUT WHAT THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE, LET ME PLAY WHAT MILLER SAID.

>> THE UNITED STATES IS USING ITS MILITARY TO SECURE OUR INTERESTS UNAPOLOGETICALLY IN OUR HEMISPHERE.

WE ARE A SUPERPOWER, AND UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP, WE ARE GOING TO CONDUCT OURSELVES AS A SUPERPOWER.

IT IS ABSURD THAT WE WOULD ALLOW A NATION IN OUR OWN BACKYARD TO BECOME THE SUPPLIER OF RESOURCES TO OUR ADVERSARIES, BUT NOT TO US.

TOWARD WEAPONS FROM OUR ADVERSARIES.

TO BE ABLE TO BE POSITIONED AS AN ASSET AGAINST THE UNITED STATES, RATHER THAN ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> THE SO, PRESIDENT SANTOS, HE HAS LAID OUT A VISION COMPLETELY AT ODDS WITH THE TRADITIONAL RULES BASED VISION THAT YOU JUST SAID NEEDS TO BE REIMPLEMENTED, SO ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT ACTUALLY THIS ADMINISTRATION'S PRINCIPLES AND THEIR VALUES ARE, AS STEPHEN MILLER HAS JUST LAID OUT.

AND YOU SEE WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT WITH THE OIL.

I MEAN, WE TALKED ABOUT THE LACK OF FOCUS ON DEMOCRACY AND THE LEGITIMATE OPPOSITION OF VENEZUELA.

INSTEAD, THEY TALK ABOUT THE PROJECTING STRENGTH, AND NOW IT IS TIME TO GET GREENLAND POINT SO, IF THAT IS THE STRONGEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD TALKING LIKE THAT, WHAT HOPE IS THERE FOR THE RULES BASED ORDER?

>> THAT IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD WORRY EVERYBODY.

IT WORRIES ME.

I AM ALSO CHAIR OF SOMETHING CALLED THE ELDERS THAT YOU KNOW VERY WELL.

AND WE ARE VERY WORRIED EXACTLY WITH WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

THIS TREND OF NOT RESPECTING THE RULE OF LAW, OF WEAKENING MULTILATERALISM , OF DOING AWAY WITH THE U.N., BECAUSE THE U.N.

IS BEING WEEKENDS.

THAT IS A PREAMBLE FOR CHAOS , AND ANARCHY AND POSSIBLY WAR.

IF YOU ALLOW THE POWERFUL COUNTRIES TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT IN THEIR [ INAUDIBLE ] OF INFLUENCE, IF CHINA GOES AND INVADES TAIWAN AND THAT IS OKAY, NOW RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE AND THAT IS OKAY, THEN WHERE DOES THAT STOP?

THIS IS WHAT WORRIES EVERYBODY, IT WORRIES ME, AND THIS IS WHAT I HOPE THAT THE DIALOGUE, WE CAN SIT DOWN AND SAY, LISTEN, WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE WAY WE RELATE TO EACH OTHER.

WE HAVE TO --WHAT MANDELA USED TO SAY, WE HAVE TO USE A CONSTRUCTIVE DIALOGUE IN ORDER TO --IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE PRESENT WORLD ORDER, WE CAN CHANGE IT, WE CAN REFORM IT, BUT WE SHOULD NOT DO AWAY WITH IT, BECAUSE IF WE DON'T HAVE AN ORDER, CHAOS WILL BE THE RULE AND CHAOS IS A PREAMBLE FOR WAR.

>> FINALLY, BECAUSE YOU SPENT SO MUCH TIME NEGOTIATING, I THINK IN CUBA , REGARDING ALL THE REST OF IT, SECRETARY RUBIO HAS INDIRECTLY THREATENED THE CUBA REGIME, SAYING IF I WAS IN CUBA, IF I WAS A MEMBER OF THE GOVERNMENT, I WOULD BE WORRIED RIGHT NOW.

DO YOU THINK THE CUBANS SHOULD BE WORRIED RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, I GUESS.

I THINK THEY SHOULD BE WORRIED THAT THE U.S.

CONTINUES TO EXERCISE ITS POWER IN A WAY THAT IT HAS ANNOUNCED .

I WOULD BE WORRIED IF I WAS A CUBAN.

BUT AGAIN, HOPEFULLY WE CAN SIT DOWN OR WE SHOULD SIT DOWN AND TALK AND HAVE A CONSTRUCTIVE DIALOGUE, BECAUSE THINGS CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO DEVELOP IN THE DIRECTION THAT THEY ARE DEVELOPING.

YOU MENTIONED ABOUT OIL IN VENEZUELA.

I AM QUITE SURE THAT IT IS NOT THE OIL.

MAYBE THE OIL IS IMPORTANT, BUT WHAT THE U.S.

IS AFTER IS WHAT THEY CALL THE REAR --THE RARE STRATEGICALLY SOMETHING MUCH MORE IMPORTANT FOR THE U.S.

THAN THE OIL.

THE U.S.

DOES NOT NEED THE OIL.

BUT CHINA IS MONOPOLIZING THESE RARE MINERALS --RARE EARTH MINERALS, AND VENEZUELA IS A BIG SOURCE OF THESE MINERALS, AND CHINA IS CONTROLLING THEIR PRODUCTION AND THE DISTRIBUTION OF THOSE MINERALS IN VENEZUELA.

SO, I THINK THAT THE OIL IS AN EXCUSE TO DO SOME OTHER THINGS THAT STRATEGICALLY FOR THE U.S.

IS MORE IMPORTANT.

>> WELL, NOW THEY HAVE TO FACE OFF AGAINST CHINA AND VENEZUELA, SO THAT IS THE NEXT CHAPTER.

PRESIDENT JUAN MANUEL SANTOS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM COLUMBIA.

>> THE THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE .

>>> NEXT TO IRAN OR PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ALSO ABOUT TO INTERVENE, SAYING THE U.S.

WOULD COME TO THE RESCUE OF PROTESTERS THERE IF THE GOVERNMENT "VIOLENTLY KILLS PEACEFUL PROTESTERS."

NOW, THESE PROTESTS WHICH HAVE BEEN GOING ON FOR OVER A WEEK ARE SPREADING FROM THE CAPITOL TO ORDINARY TOWNS.

ORDINARY IRANIANS ARE TAKING TO THE STREETS IN ANGER OF THE ONGOING ECONOMIC PAIN THAT MAKES THEIR LIVES SO VERY DIFFICULT.

IT IS A GROWING CHALLENGE TO THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.

MORE THAN TWO DOZEN HAVE DIED AND WRITE SCRIPTS SAY THOUSANDS HAVE BEEN DETAINED.

THIS IS A SENIOR FELLOW AT THE CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE AND HE IS JOINING THE FROM WASHINGTON.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

WITH ALL THIS GOING ON, WITH THE THREAT TRUMP MADE TO GUARANTEE THE LIVES OF THE PROTESTERS, HOW DO YOU READ THAT RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, I THINK THE PROTESTS HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN GAINING IN MOMENTUM OVER THE LAST WEEK, AND FOR MANY IRANIANS WHO ARE OUT THERE PROTESTING, PRESIDENT WELCOME, BUT I LIVE IN WASHINGTON AND IT IS NOT CLEAR TO ME THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE REALLY THINKING HARD AND STRATEGICALLY ABOUT IRAN, WHETHER AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT OR THE WHITE HOUSE BEYOND SIMPLY THE TWEETS OF THE PRESIDENT.

>> OKAY, SO THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING.

LET ME JUST PLAY THIS SOUND BITE OF THE PRESIDENT'S, WHICH IS IN HIS WORDS, WHAT I HAVE JUST ENCAPSULATED.

>> WE ARE WATCHING IT VERY CLOSELY.

IF THEY START KILLING PEOPLE LIKE THEY HAVE IN THE PAST, I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO GET HIT VERY HARD BY THE UNITED STATES.

>> THE SO AGAIN, I WANT TO REALLY DRILL DOWN TO WHAT YOU JUST SAID, BECAUSE HE SAID THAT, HE IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, HE THREATENED MADURO, HE DID IT, HE WENT IN AND TOOK MADURO OUT, AND QUITE FRANKLY, NO ONE KNOWS HOW TO PREDICT WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL DO OR SAY.

SO, TELL ME MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE HEARING INSIDE WASHINGTON, AND I WANT TO JUST ALSO REMEMBER THAT DURING THE 2009 GREEN REVOLUTION, IRANIANS WERE QUITE DISAPPOINTED THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA DIDN'T ACTUALLY DO MORE TO SUPPORT THEIR PROTESTS, SO WHAT IS AT STAKE FOR IRANIANS AND FOR THE U.S.

IN THIS REGARD?

>> I THINK THERE IS A FEAR AMONG SOME IRANIANS ABOUT THE VENEZUELA PRESIDENT, CHRISTIANE , WHICH IS IN VENEZUELA, PRESIDENT TRUMP CAPITATED THE LEADERSHIP, PLOPPED MADURO OUT OF CARACAS AND HE IS SITTING IN A JAIL CELL IN NEW YORK CITY.

BUT RATHER THAN TRYING TO EMPOWER THE LEGITIMATE OPPOSITION OR THE DEMOCRATIC FORCES IN VENEZUELA, THEY LEFT IN POWER ESSENTIALLY THE REMNANTS OF THE REGIME.

AND THE FEAR, I THINK AMONG IRANIANS, AND I HAVE SPOKEN TO INDIVIDUALS IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WHO WOULD AGREE WITH THIS PERCEPTION THAT IF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS ABLE TO DECAPITATE IRAN'S SUPREME LEADER, SOMEHOW TAKE HIM OUT OR EMPOWER WHO WOULD CUT LOOSE [ INAUDIBLE ] , THEY'RE WILLING TO DO A DEAL WITH THE NEXT STRONGMAN IN IRAN, IF INDEED THAT MAKES STRONGMAN PRESUMABLY FROM THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS, WOULD BE WILLING TO CHANGE IRAN'S A LONGTIME IDEOLOGY OF DEATH TO AMERICA AND DEATH TO ISRAEL.

>> AND KARIM, YOU HAVE BEEN STUDYING THIS FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.

HOW REALISTIC DOES THAT SOUND TO YOU?

>> YOU KNOW, THE SUPREME LEADER, WHO IS PROBABLY THE LONGEST SERVING AUTOCRAT IN THE WORLD, NOW ALMOST 87 YEARS OLD, HAS BEEN RULING SINCE 1989, HE HAS BEEN PREPARING FOR THIS DAY FOR A LONG TIME, AND YOU KNOW, HE VERY CAREFULLY HANDPICKS THE SENIOR REVOLUTIONARY GUARD COMMANDERS, AND HE SHUFFLES THEM EVERY FEW YEARS, SO THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO GET TOO COMFORTABLE AND OBTAIN THEIR OWN INDEPENDENT POWER BASE, SO WHAT WE SAW IN THE ARAB SPRING, IF YOU REMEMBER, CHRISTIANE , IN COUNTRIES LIKE EGYPT AND TUNISIA, THEY WANT PROTESTS MUSHROOMED AGAINST THEIR DICTATORS.

THE MILITARIES IN THOSE COUNTRIES CUT LOOSE THE DICTATORS.

THEY SAID, LISTEN, IN ORDER TO PRESERVE OUR OWN POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC INTERESTS, WE HAVE TO CUT LOOSE THE AUTOCRAT .

AND THE IRANIAN CONTEXT, UP UNTIL NOW, THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS HAVE ALWAYS SEEN THEIR FATE INTERTWINED WITH THAT OF ALI KHAMENEI.

SO, THE QUESTION IS A BIG QUESTION, CAN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SOMEHOW SEPARATE THE SUPREME LEADER , ALI KHAMENEI WITH SENIOR REVOLUTIONARY GUARD COMMANDERS, AND I DO THINK THAT IS GOING TO BE A TALL ORDER.

>> WOW.

SO, CAN WE GET NOW TO THE NITTY- GRITTY OF WHAT HAS REALLY STARTED THIS LATEST ROUND OF PROTESTS?

AND THAT IS THE SHEER ECONOMIC PAIN AND HARDSHIP, THE COLLAPSE OF THE CURRENCY, THE MASSIVE INFLATION, JUST THE INCREASING INABILITY TO KEEP BODY AND SOUL TOGETHER.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE VISION OF ALI KHAMENEI AND THE PRESIDENT WHO HAS SAID THE PEOPLE ARE RIGHT, THAT THEY ARE LEGITIMATE WITH THEIR ANGER, AND THAT HE ACTUALLY DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO FIX THINGS, BECAUSE IT IS ALL SO BADLY MANAGED THEIR AND THEY HAVE THAT SO MANY SANCTIONS FROM ABROAD, SO BREAK THAT DOWN FOR ME, WHERE DOES PEZESHKIAN STAND, WHAT CAN HE DO IF ANYTHING, AND WHAT IS KHAMENEI SAYING ABOUT THESE PROTESTS WESTER MARK >> WELL, REALLY, CHRISTIANE , MY UNDERSTANDING FOR IRAN ESPECIALLY IN THESE MOMENTS OF CRISIS, IS THAT THE WORDS OF VALUABLE.

REALLY, WE SHOULD BE FOCUSING ON THE MESSAGE OF THE SUPREME LEADER AND HIS REVOLUTIONARY GUARD COMMANDERS, BECAUSE AS THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF WOULD ADMIT, HE IS NOT SOMEONE WHO IS EMPOWERED, HE IS [ INAUDIBLE ], HE ACKNOWLEDGES THE GRIEVANCES OF THESE PROTESTS ARE LEGITIMATE.

WHAT IS UNIQUE ABOUT THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN IS THAT IT IS NOT ONLY , OBVIOUSLY, I WOULD ARGUE A TOTALITARIAN GOVERNMENT, IT IS POLITICALLY AUTHORITARIAN.

BUT IT IS ALSO A POLITICALLY AND ECONOMICALLY AUTHORITARIAN.

SO, THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT REASONS FOR PEOPLE TO BE UPSET.

THERE ARE SOME IRANIANS WE SAW TWO OR THREE YEARS AGO DURING THE WOMEN LIFE FREEDOM MOVEMENT, THAT WAS TRIGGERED BY A YOUNG WOMAN BEING KILLED FOR SHOWING TOO MUCH HAIR.

THERE IS DEEP ECONOMIC GRIEVANCES, AND OBVIOUSLY, PROFOUND POLITICAL GRIEVANCES, AND YOU HAVE A LEADERSHIP WHICH ESSENTIALLY HAS NOT CHANGED IDEOLOGY ONE IOTA OVER THE LAST FOUR DECADES.

ALI KHAMENEI HAS ESSENTIALLY OFFERED PEOPLE REPRESSION AT HOME AND HIS FOREIGN POLICY HAS BEEN ONE OF RESISTANCE.

AND SO, THAT ORGANIZING PRINCIPLE THAT YOUR CHIEF SLOGANS ARE DEATH TO AMERICA AND DEATH TO ISRAEL, NOT LONG- LIVED IRAN, YOU KNOW, THEY REALLY DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO SHOW FOR IT.

FOR THAT REASON, WE SEE, THIS IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE THAT IN MY VIEW, IRAN IS PROBABLY THE COUNTRY WHICH HAS THE GREATEST GAP BETWEEN ITS GOVERNMENT AND ITS CITIZENS IN THE WORLD.

>> SO, GIVEN THE FACT THAT IT HAS THIS DOMESTIC PROTEST RIGHT NOW, AND EVEN KHAMENEI SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, CERTAIN STAKEHOLDERS HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE ANGRY , LIKE THE SHOP OWNERS WHO CLOSED DOWN, BUT THE WRITERS NEED TO BE PUT IN THEIR PLACE, THAT'S WHAT HE SAID.

BUT THEY ALSO GOT THIS EXTERNAL THREAT, THAT IS , YOU MENTIONED THE U.S.

AND ISRAEL, AND REFERRING BACK TO THE JUNE BOMBING, THAT IS NOT OFF THE TABLE.

IT IS STILL ON THE TABLE.

DO YOU THINK -- AS ONE OF THEM TOLD THE NEW YORK TIMES, THIS REALLY IS AN EXISTENTIAL MOMENT NOW?

>> I THINK IT IS REACHING AN EXISTENTIAL MOMENT.

ANYTIME YOU HAVE PROTESTS WHICH ARE NOW THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY , THEY ARE STARTING TO COMMENCE IN SOME KEY SECTORS OF THE ECONOMY.

I SAW TODAY IN A VERY OIL-RICH PROVINCE, THERE WERE PROTESTS.

THESE PROTESTS BEGAN AMONG MERCHANTS IN THE BAZAAR, THAT IS DANGEROUS.

UNIVERSITY STUDENTS ARE PROTESTING.

YOU SEE NOW SOME OF THE ETHNIC MINORITY GROUPS PROTESTING CREDIT YOU KNOW, IF THESE PROTESTS CONTINUE TO GROW, AND YOU START TO SEE LABOR MOVEMENTS, AND THEN YOU START TO SEE A STRIKE AMONG OIL WORKERS, THIS DEFINITELY WILL THEY FACED WORSE IN THE PAST.

YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE SNUFFED LARGER PROTESTS THAN THIS, SO IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THEY WILL SUCCESSFULLY REPRESS THIS AS WELL, BUT EITHER WAY, CHRISTIANE , IN MY VIEW, IRAN IS A COUNTRY ON THE CUSP OF SOME KIND OF A TRANSFORMATION.

BECAUSE AS I SAID, THEY HAVE AN 86-YEAR-OLD SUPREME LEADER.

HE IS NOT GOING TO BE AROUND THAT MUCH LONGER, AND I DON'T THINK ANYONE, EITHER WITHIN THE SOCIETY, OR EVEN A FEW PEOPLE WITHIN THE REGIME, BELIEVE THAT THIS STATUS QUO IS SUSTAINABLE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, HE RAISED THE ISSUE OF A POTENTIAL DEAL WITH THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS AS A SOME SORT OF [ INAUDIBLE ] FROM THE UNITED STATES, BUT AS WE KNOW, THE ELDER SON OF IRAN'S FINAL SHOT, HE HAS OFTEN MENTIONED, HE IS SUPPORTED BY THE UNITED STATES, HE IS SUPPORTED BY ISRAEL, HE WROTE IN THE WASHINGTON POST FORWARD AS A STEWARD OF THE NATIONAL TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY.

MY ROLE IS TO BRING TOGETHER IRAN'S DIVERSE DEMOCRATIC FORCES , REPUBLICANS, SECULAR, BROTHERS ACTIVISTS, MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES WHO WANT TO SEE IRAN STABLE AND SOVEREIGN AGAIN."

HOW REALISTIC IS HE AS AN OPTION?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S TOO SOON TO KNOW, CHRISTIANE .

HE IS THE ONLY NAME TO THE EXTENT THE PROTESTERS ARE CALLING ANY OPPOSITIONAL NAME.

HE IS THE ONLY NAME THAT PEOPLE HAVE CALLED THUS FAR.

BASED ON OPINION HOLDING , HE HAS ONE THIRD OF THE POPULATION'S SUPPORT OF HIM, WHICH IS NOT INSIGNIFICANT, THAT IS PRETTY SIGNIFICANT .

AND WHEN HE SPEAKS TO IRANIAN AUDIENCES, HIS MESSAGE IS USUALLY PRETTY EFFECTIVE, HE IS SOMEWHAT HE WAS AN ADVOCATE OF DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM, BUT YOU KNOW, THE CHALLENGE THAT REZA PAHLAVI FACES, HE IS LIVING 6000 MILES AWAY, AND WE KNOW FROM HISTORY THAT IT IS IMPORTANT FOR EVERY REVOLUTIONARY MOVEMENT, YOU OBVIOUSLY NEED TO HAVE INSPIRATIONAL LEADERSHIP, AND FOR HIS FOLLOWERS, HE PROVIDES THAT, BUT ORGANIZATIONAL LEADERSHIP IS PERHAPS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, AND BEING ABLE TO ORGANIZE FROM SO FAR AWAY IS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT.

AND UP UNTIL NOW, THAT IS WHY THE REGIME HAS BEEN ABLE TO CONSISTENTLY PREVAIL.

IT'S NOT BECAUSE IT HAS TREMENDOUS POPULAR SUPPORT, BUT THE COMBINATION OF LETHAL FORCE AND REPRESSION AND OPPOSITION 'S LACK OF ORGANIZATION HAS HELPED THEM PREVIOUSLY PREVAIL.

>> I HAVE 40 SECONDS I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE FACT THAT A SENIOR IRANIAN OFFICIAL JUST RECENTLY TOLD ME THE ESTIMATE SOME 30% OF IRANIAN WOMEN ARE NOT WEARING THEIR I.T.

JOB RIGHT NOW AND THEY ARE NOT CRACKING DOWN ON THEM.

MY QUESTION TO YOU IS HOW IMPORTANT IS GEN Z IN THE CURRENT PROTESTS, AND IN ANY FUTURE PROTESTS AGAINST THIS REGIME?

X WELL, OBVIOUSLY, THOSE FOLKS ARE THE FUTURE OF IRAN AND THEY HAVE BEEN INCREDIBLY BRAVE.

ACCORDING TO PEOPLE I SPEAK TO IN IRAN, THE NUMBERS ARE MUCH HIGHER OF WOMEN NO LONGER OBEYING THE MANDATORY HIJAB, AND THIS IS SIGNIFICANT, BECAUSE I WOULD ARGUE -- THERE WERE THREE PILLARS OF THE 1979 REVOLUTION, DEATH TO AMERICA, DEATH TO ISRAEL, AND THE MANDATORY HIJAB FOR WOMEN, AND ONE OF THOSE PILLARS HAS FALLEN.

IT'S REALLY FASCINATING, KARIM SADJADPOUR, THANK YOU AS ALWAYS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO, THIS YEAR IS OFF TO A TURBULENT START AND A NEW GLOBAL RISK REPORT BY THE EURASIA GROUP IS SOUNDING THE ALARM, CALLING 2026 A TIPPING POINT IN AN UNUSUAL SHIFT.

IT IDENTIFIES THE UNITED STATES AS THE PRINCIPAL THREAT TO THE GLOBAL ORDER AND OFFERS A STARK WARNING AS PRESIDENT TRUMP TESTS THE LIMITS OF HIS OWN EXECUTIVE POWER.

IAN BREHMER IS THE GROUP'S FOUNDER AND PRESIDENT.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO BREAK DOWN WHAT HE CALLS THE AMERICAN POLITICAL REVOLUTION.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE , AND IAN BREHMER, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

LET'S START WITH THAT AS WELL OF COURSE AND THE CAPTURE OF PRESIDENT MADURO.

HE REFERRED TO IT IN YOUR BEGINNING OF THE YEAR REPORT AS THE DON ROAD DOCTRINE.

REFERRING TO JAMES MONROE'S DOCTRINE OF THE 1820S THAT WE SHOULD HAVE SOUTH AMERICA OR OTHER WESTERN HEMISPHERE AS A SPHERE OF INFLUENCE.

COULD WE GO BACK TO THAT TYPE OF SPHERE OF INFLUENCE?

DOES THIS MAKE SENSE?

X WE COULDN'T GO BACK TO IT ON THE ECONOMIC SIDE BECAUSE CHINA, OF COURSE, IS THE DOMINANT TRADE PARTNER WITH MOST OF THE COUNTRIES IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE AND THEY ARE NOT ABOUT TO LEAVE.

MEXICO, OF COURSE, THE U.S.

HAS BEEN PUSHING HARD AGAINST CHINESE SHIPMENTS.

THE MEXICANS REALLY IT RELIANT SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASED THEIR TARIFFS AGAINST CHINA, BUT THAT IS PROBABLY SPEAKING NOT GOING TO WORK PRETTY MILITARILY, OF COURSE, THE U.S.

IS DOMINANT, AND NOT ONLY IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE.

AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHERE TRUMP JUST HAD A STAGGERING SUCCESS WITH A SIX-MONTH IN PROCESS PLAN TO REMOVE MADURO AND BRING HIM TO SEE JUSTICE IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE REGION ARE ABSOLUTELY PUT ON NOTICE AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THAT.

AND NOT JUST IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE, THIS IS A GREENLAND ISSUE, TOO.

TRUMP HAS MADE VERY CLEAR THAT HE INTENDS TO HAVE GREENLAND.

HE WANTS SOVEREIGNTY OVER IT AND HE IS NOT DEBATING THAT WITH THE DANES RIGHT NOW.

SO, THIS IS A REALLY BIG SHIFT TO THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE IN AMERICA'S BACKYARD.

>> WELL, WAIT A MINUTE, YOU JUST CALLED IT THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE, BUT YOU SAY THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE IS DANGEROUS .

WHAT APPLIES TO YOUR ENEMIES ONE DAY CAN APPLY TO YOU THE NEXT, MAKE NO MISTAKE WHERE THE WORLD IS HEADING HERE.

>> YEAH, WAS STAGGERING SUCCESS FOR TRUMP IN THE HEADLINE IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM U.S.

INFLUENCE IN FIVE OR 10 YEARS.

I MEAN, TRUMP IS CLEARLY REALLY PLEASED THAT MADURO IS OUT AND THAT WHATEVER NEXT GOVERNMENT COMES IN, NOT REGIME CHANGE, MORE LIKE A REGIME ROLE AT IS GOING TO DO AMERICA'S BIDDING OR ELSE THAT MILITARY CAN BE USED AGAINST THEM, SO HE SEES THAT AS A WIN, BUT LONG TERM, THE UNITED STATES IS NOT CHINA, IT IS NOT RUSSIA, IT DOESN'T HAVE LEADERS FOR LIFE, IT HAS ELECTIONS EVERY FOUR YEARS, AND JUST AS TRUMP DID TO BIDEN AND BIDEN DID TO TRUMP BEFORE HIM AND BIDEN DID TO OBAMA, THE NEXT PRESIDENT CAN CHANGE THINGS.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE AN INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY, WHEN YOU HAVE AN ELECTION CYCLE, WHEN YOU HAVE TWO DIFFERENT POLITICAL PARTIES, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE THE LAW ACTUALLY BE CONSTRAINED BY RULE OF LAW WITH INSTITUTIONS THAT YOU SET UP, BECAUSE THEY ALIGN WITH YOU OVER THE LONG-TERM.

UM, UNFORTUNATELY, TRUMPS EFFORTS TO SECURE A LAW OF THE JUNGLE IN A G0 WORLD, AS I PUT IT, LONG-TERM IS MUCH MORE BENEFICIAL FOR THE CHINESE THAN IT IS FOR THE UNITED STATES.

>> WAIT, YOU SAY IT IS BENEFICIAL TO THE CHINESE, YOU SAY WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO HAVE ECONOMIC DOMINANCE, BUT THE CHINESE WHO HAVE LENT LARGE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO VENEZUELA BASED ON OIL REVENUES, THEY NOW SEEM LIKE THEY'RE GOING TO BE CUT OUT OF THIS EQUATION.

>> WELL, ACTUALLY, IN THE HOURS AFTER MADURO WAS REMOVED, DESPITE THE U.S.

BOYCOTT ON TANKER TRAFFIC, OVER 12 TANKERS WERE ALLOWED OUT.

THAT WAS BY THE UNITED STATES TO SHIP OVER OIL TO CHINA.

AND TRUMP SAID THE CHINESE WILL BE ABLE TO GET THERE OIL.

THE UNITED STATES IS QUITE EXCITED NOW, TRUMP IS GOING TO JINPING COMING UP IN APRIL.

AND THIS RELATIONSHIP IS PRECISELY WHAT TRUMP CALLS AG TO NOW.

WHY IS HE AFFORDING THE CHINESE SUCH INCREDIBLE DEFERENCE WHEN HE IS BEATING UP ON VENEZUELA AND HE IS BEATING UP ON HIS OWN ALLIES?

AND THE REASON OF COURSE IS BECAUSE THE CHINESE HAVE SHOWN THE WILLINGNESS AND THE CAPABILITY TO HIT THE AMERICANS BACK HARD.

SO, THERE IS REALLY BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TRUMP ANNOUNCING FULL AROUND AND FIND OUT TO NICOLAS MADURO, AND PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT TACO, WHEN TALKING ABOUT HOW AMERICANS NEED TO BACK DOWN TO THE CHINESE BID AND THE REAL QUESTION, IF YOU WANT TO THINK, WALTER, ABOUT HOW THE U.S.

WILL ENGAGE WITH OTHER COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD, HOW WILL THEY FALL ON THAT SPECTRUM BETWEEN FAFO AND TACO ?

THE EUROPEANS TODAY, AT LEAST FROM AMERICA'S FAFO LIKE AND THAT IS A PROBLEM FOR EUROPE STEPHEN MILLER JUST SAID GREENLAND SHOULD OBVIOUSLY BE PART OF THE U.S.

AND THAT NOBODY IS GOING TO FIGHT THE UNITED STATES OVER THE FUTURE OF GREENLAND.

SO, WHEN WE SPEAK NEXT YEAR ON THIS DAY, WHO IS GOING TO CONTROL GREENLAND?

>> WE DON'T KNOW.

THERE IS NO PLAN FOR TAKING OVER GREENLAND, BUT TRUMP SAYS HE WANTS ONE, AND THAT MEANS AMERICAN SOVEREIGNTY OVER GREENLAND.

>> WHAT WOULD THAT MEAN TO NATO, THEN?

>> WELL, IT WOULD BE A DISASTER, OF COURSE, FOR THE NON-AMERICAN NATO COUNTRIES.

NOW, THAT DOESN'T MEAN BOOTS ON THE GROUND.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT AN INVASION, BUT THERE ARE LOTS OF WAYS TO HAVE INFLUENCE OVER A COUNTRY AND GET WHAT YOU WANT IF YOU ARE SO MUCH MORE POWERFUL, AS THE UNITED STATES IS.

POLITICAL INDUCEMENTS AND ECONOMIC INDUCEMENTS, AND ALSO THREATS.

AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS THE U.S.

HAS CUT OFF THEIR NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE DANES, THEY DON'T WANT TO DISCUSS THIS THIS IS THE ALICE THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS PART OF ALL OF THIS.

IF WHAT TRUMP WANTED WAS MORE ACCESS FOR U.S.

BASES IN GREENLAND, MORE ABILITY TO HAVE INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE, IF HE NEEDED ACCESS FOR THE AMERICANS TO EXPLOIT GREENLAND 'S NATURAL WEALTH AND RESOURCES, ALL OF THAT IS ON THE TABLE BY JUST SITTING DOWN AND NEGOTIATING WITH DENMARK.

>> THIS LAW OF THE JUNGLE WHERE MIGHT MAKES RIGHT AND WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THESE THINGS, YOU SAID THAT COULD BACKFIRE ON US.

LET ME READ YOU SOMETHING THAT WAS ON CHINA'S SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, POSTINGS THAT WERE ALLOWED BY THE CENTER TO STAY ON THE PLATFORMS.

ONE OF THEM READ IF THE UNITED STATES CAN ARREST ANOTHER COUNTRY'S PRESIDENT, THEN CHINA CAN ABSOLUTELY ARREST TAIWAN'S PRESIDENT.

AND THEN THERE WAS A COMMENT FOLLOWING UP, SAYING IT IS NOT THAT CHINA IS NOT ABLE TO, IT IS THAT CHINA DOESN'T DARE TO.

DO YOU THINK THIS VENEZUELA ACTION MIGHT EMBOLDEN CHINA TO DO SOMETHING SIMILAR ON TAIWAN?

>> NOT IN THE NEAR-TERM, NO.

AND THAT IS WHY THIS IS IN THE REPORT.

CHINA OF COURSE SEES TAIWAN AS A DOMESTIC POLICY ISSUE, NOT A FOREIGN POLICY ISSUE, SO THEY CERTAINLY BELIEVE IT IS WITHIN THEIR RIGHTS TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT WITH TAIWAN, BUT THEY ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT TAIWAN IS AN ISLAND, IS VERY HEAVILY FORTIFIED AND OFFENDED, AND IT ALSO MATTERS A LOT ECONOMICALLY TO CHINA, ESPECIALLY TSMC AND THE SEMICONDUCTOR PRODUCTION, ALL OF WHICH IS AN UNACCEPTABLE RISK FOR THE CHINESE TO TAKE AGAINST THE UNITED STATES, VENEZUELA OR NO VENEZUELA BUT SO, THIS IS REALLY A CAPABILITIES ISSUE AND IT IS THE FACT THAT THE CHINESE ARE LONG-TERM PLAYERS, THEIR PATIENT, AND THEY ARE BIDING THEIR TIME WITH THE INTENTION OF MAKING A MOVE ON TAIWAN WHEN THEY BELIEVE IT IS TO THEIR ADVANTAGE.

THAT TIME IS NOT TODAY.

>> HOW DOES THIS VENEZUELA SITUATION SORT OF AFFECT RUSSIAN RELATIONS, AND EVEN THE SENSE THAT MAYBE RUSSIA SHOULD HAVE ITS SPHERE OF INFLUENCE, INCLUDING LARGE PARTS OF UKRAINE?

>> I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU A SIMILAR ANSWER, WHICH IS, AGAIN, THE RUSSIANS DIDN'T NEED THE AMERICANS TO MAKE THEM FEEL LIKE THEY DESERVE A SPHERE OF INFLUENCE, AND THEY INVADED UKRAINE INITIALLY IN 2014 WITH THE ILLEGAL CRIMEA ANNEXATION .

THEY SAW THAT THE EUROPEANS AND AMERICANS DIDN'T DO VERY MUCH ABOUT IT, SO THEN THEY WENT BACK FOR A SECOND, MUCH BIGGER BITE OF THE APPLE IN 2022, THE FULL ON INVASION.

ALL OF THIS COMES WELL BEFORE VENEZUELA.

SO, IT WAS INTERESTING TO SEE THE RUSSIANS PUBLICLY, THE KREMLIN CONDEMNED THE UNITED STATES FOR THIS BREACH OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, SOMETHING THE RUSSIANS HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF EXPERTISE ON IN HISTORY , OF COURSE, THEMSELVES.

BUT THE RUSSIAN PROBLEM IS THAT THEIR MILITARY IS NOWHERE CLOSE TO AS CAPABLE AS THE AMERICAN I MEAN, IF THE RUSSIANS COULD HAVE COME CLOSE TO PULLING OFF AGAINST ZELENSKYY WHAT THE AMERICANS DID TO MADURO, YOU AND I WOULD BE HAVING A VERY DIFFERENT CONVERSATION RIGHT NOW ABOUT UKRAINE AND ABOUT RUSSIA'S FUTURE.

BUT RUSSIA'S INCAPACITY, IT'S LACK OF WEALTH AND PRODUCTIVITY AND IT'S LACK OF HUMAN CAPITAL, SO MUCH OF WHICH HAS DIED ON THE BATTLEFIELD OR HAS GOT OUT OF DODGE BECAUSE THEY ARE SO SCARED OF WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THEM IF THEY ARE DRAFTED, THAT REALLY UNDERMINES RUSSIA'S FUTURE, SO THEY ARE GAINING SOME LAND IN UKRAINE, BUT RUSSIA IS LOSING EVERYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

>> IN THE NEXT APPLICATION OF THE DONROE DOCTRINE, IT MIGHT BE CUBA, THAT'S WHAT WOULD MAKE SENSE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN THERE?

CUBA GOT, I THINK, A LOT OF ITS RESOURCES FROM VENEZUELA.

>> YEAH, THAT IS GOING TO STOP.

WE HEARD THAT CUBANS WERE KILLED IN THE AMERICAN OPERATIONS IN VENEZUELA AND THEY WERE PROVIDING A LOT OF INTELLIGENCE AND MILITARY ADVICE TO THE VENEZUELANS.

THAT THERE IS A DOMINO THEORY THAT YOU GET RID OF MADURO AND YOU GET RID OF THE LEADERS IN NICARAGUA , AND CUBA IS THE ULTIMATE, YOU KNOW, SORT OF LAST SHOE TO FALL.

THERE ARE A LOT OF LEADERS ACROSS LATIN AMERICA THAT ARE ALIGNED WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

YOU JUST SAW THAT ELECTION IN CHILE, TO ARGENTINA.

IN COLOMBIA, ELECTIONS THIS YEAR WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY LEAD TO A RIGHT WING, PRO-TRUMP FIGURE, AS OPPOSED TO PETRO, WHO HE CAN'T STAND.

BUT CUBA, THEY'RE NOT HAVING ELECTIONS.

AND FOR THE AMERICANS TO DEAL WITH THAT, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO ENGAGE IN SOME LEVEL OF DIRECT INTERVENTION.

NOW, WHETHER THAT STARTS WITH AN ECONOMIC BLOCKADE OR WHETHER THAT STARTS WITH DIPLOMACY AND A GIVE YOU AN ULTIMATUM, THEY DON'T HAVE THAT PLAN YET, BUT I CERTAINLY EXPECTED OVER THE COMING YEAR, THE PLAN IS GOING TO BE DRAWN UP.

>> MEXICO IS AN INTERESTING CASE FOR THE DONROE DOCTRINE.

WITH MEXICO'S PRESIDENT, CLAUDIA SHEINBAUM, AND YET HE PUT IT IN THE CROSSHAIRS AND SOME OF HIS COMMENTS THIS WEEK.

TELL ME WHAT YOU MAKE OF THAT.

>> I THINK THAT CLAUDIA SHEINBAUM HAS DONE A MASTERFUL JOB OF UNDERSTANDING THAT SHE IS IN A VERY VULNERABLE POSITION AND SHE NEEDS THE AMERICANS, SHE HAS NOWHERE ELSE TO GO, SHE DOESN'T HAVE A CHINA PLAY, SHE DOESN'T HAVE A EUROPE PLAY, IT IS ALL ABOUT TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES, REMITTANCES FROM MEXICANS LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES, THAT IS TOWARDS HIM, YOU NAME IT.

SO, SHE HAS WORKED VERY HARD TO DO AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO SHUT DOWN FENTANYL, TO SECURE AND POLICE THE BORDER, TO LISTEN TO THE AMERICANS ON TRANSSHIPMENT OF GOODS FROM CHINA THROUGH MEXICO.

SHE IS PUTTING HIGHER TARIFFS ON CHINESE GOODS COMING IN.

EVERYTHING THAT YOU POSSIBLY CAN, BUT SHE HAS A REDLINE, AND THAT REDLINE IS MEXICAN SOVEREIGNTY.

THE AMERICANS CANNOT SEND DRONES IN, TO FIGHT DIRECTLY AGAINST THE NARCO CARTELS.

THEY HAVE TO WORK WITH MEXICO TOGETHER.

BUT I WILL TELL YOU THAT TRUMP IN THE FIRST MONTHS WAS THINKING ABOUT MAYBE WE WANT TO JUST USE FORCE IN MEXICO, AND THE LAST COUPLE MONTHS, WE HAVE HEARD INTERNALLY PEOPLE, INCLUDING STEPHEN MILLER, SAY THAT MEXICO IS COOPERATING SO WELL WITH THE AMERICANS THAT MAYBE WE DON'T NEED TO INVADE UNILATERALLY.

MAYBE WE CAN JUST WORK WITH THEM.

AND THAT IS A TESTAMENT TO CLAUDIA SHEINBAUM WORKING VERY HARD AND EFFECTIVELY, AND HER CABINET, WITH THE UNITED STATES.

>> YOUR VERY FIRST ITEM ON YOUR RISK LIST IS THE DOMESTIC POLITICAL SITUATION IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT REMINDS ME OF THE OLD POGO CARTOON.

YOU MAY NOT BE OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER IT, BUT WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US.

YES.

AND SO, TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU THINK WE ARE GOING THROUGH A POLITICAL REVOLUTION THAT IS A THREAT TO OUR INTERNATIONAL STANDING?

>> WHETHER OR NOT THE REVOLUTION IS SUCCESSFUL, THE REALITY OF AMERICA STRUGGLING INTERNALLY IS MAKING IT MUCH LESS RELIABLE INTERNATIONALLY.

AND THIS IS THE PROBLEM THAT AMERICANS MAY NOT AGREE ON WHICH PART OF AMERICA IS THE ENEMY, BUT THEY SEEM TO INCREASINGLY AGREE THAT THE ENEMY IS NOT RUSSIA, CHINA, NORTH KOREA, IRAN, THE PRINCIPAL ENEMY IS INSIDE THE HOUSE, AND DROP IN PARTICULAR REALLY BELIEVES THAT A LOT OF HIS SUPPORTERS BELIEVE THAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS WEAPONIZED AGAINST HIM.

THAT THESE TWO UNPRECEDENTED IMPEACHMENTS, THE FELONY --THE FELONIES AND THE CONVICTIONS, AGAIN, UNPRECEDENTED, AND THE NEAR ASSASSINATION, OCCURRED BECAUSE BIDEN AND THE DEMOCRATS WEAPONIZED THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT AGAINST HIM.

AND SO, HE NOW BELIEVES THAT HE MUST WEAPONIZED THE ADMINISTRATIVE STATE, POLITICIZE IT, AS WELL AS THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, THE FBI, THE POWER MINISTRIES IN THE U.S., TO ENSURE THAT THEY CAN NEVER COME BACK TO POWER AND DO THAT TO HIM.

AND THAT IS A VERY DANGEROUS POSITION FOR THE U.S.

IT MEANS THAT HE IS TRYING TO BREAK THE CHECKS AND BALANCES AGAINST THE PRESIDENCY, AND SO FAR, HE HAS DONE A LOT MORE OF THAT THAN ANYONE WOULD HAVE EXPECTED A YEAR AGO, WALTER, AND THE REACTION THAT HAS BEEN PUSHED BACK, THERE HAS BEEN LESS PUSHBACK THAN ANYONE WOULD HAVE EXPECTED A YEAR AGO.

>> AND YOU EXPECTED A YEAR AGO, YOU SAID IT WAS A BIT OVERSTATED THAT DEMOCRACY'S INSTITUTIONS WOULD FALL APART, THAT THERE WERE GUARDRAILS.

ARE YOU SURPRISED AT HOW PROBLEMATIC IT WAS, HAVING THE GUARDRAILS THAT PROTECT OUR DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS -- >> I WILL SAY THAT I AM A LITTLE BIT SURPRISED.

I STILL THINK THIS POLITICAL REVOLUTION WILL ULTIMATELY FAIL.

I THINK TRUMP DOESN'T HAVE THE POPULARITY, THE ABILITY TO SEE IT THROUGH, AND THAT THERE ARE STILL GUARDRAILS.

I THINK THAT THE JUDGES IN THE SEE THE SUPREME COURT RULE, YOU HAVE JUST SEEN TRUMP PUSHBACK ON USING THE NATIONAL GUARD IN CHICAGO, FOR EXAMPLE.

YOU SAW HIS INVESTIGATIONS AGAINST LETITIA JAMES AND COMEY GET PUSHED BACK.

SO, THERE HAS BEEN SOME.

THE U.S.

IS A FEDERAL SYSTEM.

THE STATES OF MATTER.

THEY ARE RED AND BLUE, BUT THEY ARE MORE TECHNOCRATIC IN THE WAY THEY ARE GOVERNED, AND THAT ALSO MEANS THE WAY THAT ELECTIONS OCCUR.

BUT WHEN I LOOK AT THE WEAKNESS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, WHEN I LOOK AT THE INABILITY AND UNWILLINGNESS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TO BE ANYTHING BUT COMPLETELY LOYAL TO TRUMP, WHEN I SEE THAT THE CEOs AND THE BANKERS ARE PRIVATELY VERY CONCERNED AND WRING THEIR HANDS, BUT PUBLICLY WON'T CRITICIZE WHEN THEY SEE THE ROLE OF THE CORPORATE MEDIA ROLLING OVER AND PAYING OFF LAWSUITS THAT THEY KNOW THEY COULD WIN, BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO BE THREATENED OR THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE THEY GET A NEW MERGER DEAL TOGETHER.

WHEN I SEE THE THREAT BY TRUMP AGAINST PUBLIC TELEVISION, DEAL ABOUT, ALL OF THOSE THINGS DO IMPLY THAT WE ARE IN UNPRECEDENTED TIMES.

>> YOU WRITE, "WITH ONLY THREE YEARS LEFT AND DEMOCRATS FAVOR TO TAKE THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES IN NOVEMBER'S MIDTERM ELECTIONS, TRUMP AND HIS INNER CIRCLE WILL GROW MORE, NOT LESS RISK EXCEPT IT."

TELL ME WHAT YOU EXPECT.

>> WELL, IT IS KIND OF LIKE WHAT WE JUST SAW ON VENEZUELA.

THAT WHEN TRUMP FEELS LIKE HE IS NOT SUCCEEDING IN ONE AREA, HE DOESN'T SORT OF GIVE UP, HE DOUBLES DOWN IN ANOTHER.

AND I THINK THAT TRANCE IMPULSES, JUST AS YOU SAW AFTER HE LOST THE ELECTION IN 2020 AND HE DIDN'T GIVE UP AND GO QUIETLY INTO THE NIGHT, HE SAID NO, NO, NO, I'M ROLLING MY PEOPLE AND WE ARE GOING TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO OVERTURN THIS FAKE ELECTION THAT HAS BEEN RAISED AGAINST ME, I DON'T THINK ANYONE THAT KNOWS TRUMP THINGS THAT THIS GUY ISN'T A FIGHTER.

THIS GUY WAS ALMOST KILLED IMMEDIATELY AND RAISES HIS FIST IN THE AIR AND IT'S RIGHT IN THE WEST WING, BIG PHOTOGRAPH, YOU GO IN AND THERE IS --IN THE WHITE HOUSE, THERE IS THIS MASSIVE PAINTING OF TRUMP FIGHTING.

I THINK THAT TRUMP FEELS LIKE HE HAS EVERYTHING TO LOSE IF THE DEMOCRATS COME BACK AND HE'S GOING TO DO EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER, WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE MUCH MORE LOYAL TO HIM AROUND HIM IN HIS ADMINISTRATION THAN THEY WERE IN THE FIRST TERM TO FIGHT, TO ENSURE THAT HIS POLITICAL REVOLUTION IS SUCCESSFUL.

>> EN BREMMER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> AND THAT'S ALL WE HAVE TIME FOR TONIGHT BUT IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN-UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

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